The 8th House: A Good Death?

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If you’re a halfway competent astrologer and you have no interest in knowing how you’re likely to meet your maker, then stop reading now.

Today I am going to explore some of the key insights relating to death in the nativity; it is a profoundly difficult subject for very obvious reasons and not one that I would ever make mention of in consultation, however, it provides a fascinating area of study and it is possible to demonstrate that the manner of death is a very fruitful domain for study using the astrology.

What I will not attempt is to formulate a method for predicting the time of death, that is a level of detail in which I am not remotely interested, and I cannot imagine any reason or logic that would make such a discipline even remotely attractive. This article will only seek to determine the manner in which the end is met, not the timing of it.

I have long known – broadly – how my life will conclude and it holds remarkably little fear for me; I am reconciled to it and – perhaps due in part to that long familiarity – I find it vaguely comforting to have some sense of what I might expect at the end. I am also absolutely confident of my conclusions in this regard, I have looked at too many nativities of the deceased to harbour any illusions about the probabilities of such profundities. In addition, for the astrologer, the methodology of predicting the manner of death is really quite straightforward. As ever though, due to the Cascade Effect, hindsight lends all manner of granularity to the picture, texture that can only be guessed at beforehand. Of course this is one of the key criticisms of the whole of astrology, but, as with all immeasurabilities, a sense of form is not rendered pointless because the finished piece is still in the conceiver’s mind’s eye.

So then, to practicalities.

The key elements are as ever: placements in the 8th, the ruler of the 8th house cusp and its conditions, Pluto and broadly, in the sense of determining the conditions ruling the end of the life, the 4th, placements in it and the ruler of the 4th house cusp.

The 8th house, which I have written about before is not so simplistically (as it is often maligned) the house of death. It provides considerable insight into the conditions of the physical death, but the difficulty with comprehending the intrinsic nature of the 8th is based upon its primativity. Simply put, the 8th rules the birth-death-rebirth principle and in this sense it tells us much about how we start over, how we remove the old to make way for the new: mundanely it says something about how we end relationships (see the astrology of marital breakdown for more), how we quit our jobs and to some extent too, our attitude toward possessions and money, taxes, credit, our partner’s resources and of course, sex.

But that’s another story for another day.

In general terms, a tenant within a house overrides the ruler of that house’s cusp, most especially though, the proximity of a tenant to the house cusp is proportional to the weight of it in the analysis. A tenant applying to the 9th cusp therefore is often of less import even to 8th house affairs than a placement in the latter degrees of the 7th. Also, the Cascade Effect suggests that clues about one’s demise can be gleaned from other affairs of the 8th. Thus, for example, if you experience sudden relationship breakdowns, then you can be fairly sure that your exit from this life can be similarly fast. Let us consider the zodiac in this respect: if your 8th house cusp is in the sign of or the sign ruler is similarly configured, or that planet is within the 8th or especially applying to its cusp:

Aries (Mars): sudden, possibly violent, head or brain configured.
Taurus (Venus): slow, generally peaceful, maybe due to overindulgence, throat.
Gemini (Mercury): Possible multiple causes, mental deterioration possible, lungs and breathing.
Cancer (Moon): At home, overeating may be a factor, stomach.
Leo (Sun): probable cardiac problems, some drama.
Virgo (Hygeia): Often a quiet demise in modest circumstances, not dramatic, digestive system.
Libra (Venus): Not difficult, maybe related to kidney function.
Scorpio (Pluto): Possibly confined or violent, alcohol.
Sagittarius (Jupiter): Abroad or away from home, possibly overindulgence.
Capricorn (Saturn): Slow degenerative demise probably in old age.
Aquarius (Uranus): Sudden, possibly unusual demise, rare diseases, blood problems.
Pisces (Neptune): Confused; cause of death obscure or uncertain, alcohol, poison, drugs, mistake, suicide.

In general terms the elements define themselves, with earth tending to physical disease, water to depression and so forth. Of course, these are no hard and fast rules. Consider Karl Marx who, with the 8th house cusp in Libra actually died of pleurisy, a classically Geminian death. However, a quick glance at his astrology confirms that Mercury was peregrine in Gemini: and when you consider the Cascade Effect again, it becomes a factor which runs away with the entire chart, a brilliant mind, a classically Mercurial demise. Peregrination, which very often rules the life, similarly can have a pronounced influence upon the death too.

Let us consider some concrete examples.

00) Pissburgh, PA, USA

Andy Warhol, artist: 6 Aug 1928 )6:30 (EST +5:00) Pittsburgh, PA, USA

Andy Warhol lived with an acute gallbladder problem his entire adult life. Warhol died in New York City at 6:32 a.m. on February 22, 1987. According to news reports, he had been making good recovery from a routine gallbladder surgery at New York Hospital before dying in his sleep from a sudden post-operative cardiac arrhythmia. Prior to his diagnosis and operation, Warhol delayed having his recurring gallbladder problems checked, as he was afraid to enter hospitals and see doctors. The sun square to Jupiter is especially pertinent to the gallbladder difficulty, wherever this aspect is found, there is a sensitivity to indulgent habits that usually finds its way out into the liver or its associated functions.

Now consider this news report taken from the New York Times, December 5th 1991:

Care Faulted In the Death Of Warhol

Andy Warhol — anemic, undernourished and fearful of hospitals — slipped into a coma after surgery and died virtually unattended because his doctors overloaded him with fluids, a lawyer for his estate said yesterday in opening arguments in a wrongful death suit.

The lawyer, Bruce Clark, said that New York Hospital negligently pumped more than twice the required volume of fluids into Mr. Warhol when he underwent gallbladder surgery five years ago and that the resulting internal pressure caused his death from heart failure.

Pointing out the vein of his right arm to the State Supreme Court jury in Manhattan, Mr. Clark said: “They pumped him full through here and they never kept track of what came out later. The fluids drowned him.” ‘Where Were They?’

Mr. Clark, the lawyer for the heirs to the estate, including Mr. Warhol’s two brothers and the Warhol foundation, recounted what he called mistakes and omissions by the doctors and hospital staff both before and after the 58-year-old artist’s surgery.

Now look to the astrology. We ought to consider the tenants of the 8th first, although Moon is, in my view somewhat discounted since she applies to the 9th with alacrity. Uranus then, and in Aries suggests sudden endings, and rather unexpected too; Warhol’s gallbladder problem was not considered to be remotely life threatening.

More intriguingly, the ruler of the 8th is Neptune. Consider some of the language in the above news report: “overloaded [...] with fluids”, “wrongful death”, “the fluids drowned him”, “where were they” and “mistakes and omissions”. A litany of Neptunian language indeed. Thus, liquids, mistakes, confusion and abandonment are all themes which are intrinsically associated with Warhol’s death. The actual cause of death: “a sudden post-operative cardiac arrhythmia” is entirely in keeping with Uranus – Saturn (by Ebertin, inhibitions of rhythm, heart-block) and with Neptune on the degree of Leo for the atrioventricular septum, the muscle wall which separates the ventricles of the heart one from the other, then this hardly constitutes a surprise.

Therefore, both Uranus (tenanting the 8th) and Neptune (the 8th house ruler) describe key qualities of  his death.

The same conditions and insights occur in other cases. John F. Kennedy, the American president had Mars in the first degrees of the 8th, thus a violent end, and of course, Mars rules firearms too. Lee Harvey Oswald had Mars in the 8th house and in Aquarius, thus sudden, unexpected and violent and also involving firearms. Marilyn Monroe had Mars and Uranus in the 8th, thus sudden, unexpected and violent also, but as with Warhol, the 8th house cusp in Neptune creates another possibility, and of course the mystery and confusion surrounding the circumstances of her death remain to this day, this from Wikipedia:

On August 5, 1962, LAPD police sergeant Jack Clemmons received a call at 4:25AM from Dr. Hyman Engelberg proclaiming that Monroe was dead at her home in Brentwood, Los Angeles, California. Sergeant Clemmons was the first police officer to arrive at the death scene.Many questions remain unanswered about the circumstances of her death and the timeline after Monroe’s body was found.

The official cause of Monroe’s death was classified by Dr. Thomas Noguchi of the Los Angeles County Coroners office as “acute barbiturate poisoning”, which he recorded as a “probable suicide”. Eight milligram percent of chloral hydrate and 4.5 milligram percent of Nembutal were found in her system after the autopsy.Her death was classified as “probable suicide”, but because of a lack of evidence, investigators could not classify her death as suicide or homicide.

Once again, with Pisces configured the terminology is resonant with Neptunian themes: “many questions remain unanswered”, “acute barbiturate poisoning”, “probable suicide” and “lack of evidence”.

There are always subplots. Andy Warhol’s Pluto was in Cancer on the degree for the duodenal opening of pancreatic duct, and very close therefore in proximity and function to the gallbladder itself. The closest aspect in his entire astrology at only 4 minutes of arc was Mars square Neptune, an aspect which in itself promotes wastage; Warhol was painfully underweight (a common side-effect of gall diseases in general due to an inability to process fat) at 5 feet 11 inches in height, he weighed only 138 pounds (a touch under 10 stone).

When Warhol’s body was weighed at autopsy he weighed 150 pounds, the hospital had arguably pumped 12 pounds of fluids into his body by mistake. That equates to approximately one and a half gallons of fluid by weight.

Andy Warhol was inadvertently drowned.

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88 comments on “The 8th House: A Good Death?

  1. christine says:

    Thanks for another great post, Jeremy. Could you offer a/ your definition of peregrination? I’ve seen it described in various ways…?

  2. flip says:

    Very interesting. You do not discuss chiron. Chiron is the only planet in my 8th house. The cusp of my 8th house is aquarius.

  3. buddymaterna says:

    I don´t know why I found that funny. Nice article. How about an 8th house Moon? Will I die in my sleep, peacefully?

  4. OK, I use Placidus which would put Pisces on my 8th, but what if I used whole sign houses? Then it would be Aries. Does the manner of an astrologer’s death depend on the house system they use? ;)

  5. flip says:

    Actually, my chiron is in Aquarius. I’m 50 yrs. old.

  6. chris says:

    thanks so much for the link to the peregrination posts– very helpful -C

  7. Bitzky says:

    This is one piece of information I’m not sure if I would like to have. Even if given incomplete information, my brain would project so many scenarios that I would never find peace regarding this. I am glad that you managed to do it, though :)

    Btw, I am not commenting much (because most of your posts are over my head) but I am still reading :)

  8. Esras says:

    i am so scared and worried at this moment.My brother has Mars and Moon on his 8th house.The ruler of 8th house is Aquarius and mars make square with uranus and moon. It seems that he will have a violent death as well…………….. could you please give more examples
    Thank you

  9. Michelle says:

    Neat article. I have Aries on the 8th cusp. My Mars-Pluto square is the tightest in my chart. The Sun, Mercury and Chiron are in my 8th (and Jupiter, but it’s on the 8-9 cusp). Venus is on my 7-8 cusp. I have Neptune in Sag in my 4th.I guess it could go either way either very violent or very peaceful. Maybe it’ll be violent, but it won’t hurt? lol. wishful thinking :D

  10. [...] What factors then relate to her death? Astrology alone posits a great many intriguing factors. We have begun with the understanding that peregrine Pluto creates a distinct possibility of a rather tragic end, but this alone is not enough. Sun in the 8th and so profoundly stressed from Mars and Neptune becomes extremely intriguing because this blends accidents, falls and cuts with confusion, mistakes and misdiagnosis into a single potential. This exact principle led directly and unerringly to the death of Andy Warhol through a mistake (Neptune) in the quantity of fluid (also Neptune) that he was administered after surgery. Warhol’s nativity also evinced a fixed Mars-Neptune sqaure (from Taurus to Leo) and I discussed this intriguing case also in a previous article: The 8th House: A Good Death? [...]

  11. [...] What factors then relate to her death? Astrology alone posits a great many intriguing factors. We have begun with the understanding that peregrine Pluto creates a distinct possibility of a rather tragic end, but this alone is not enough. Sun in the 8th and so profoundly stressed from Mars and Neptune becomes extremely intriguing because this blends accidents, falls and cuts with confusion, mistakes and misdiagnosis into a single potential. This exact principle led directly and unerringly to the death of Andy Warhol through a mistake (Neptune) in the quantity of fluid (also Neptune) that he was administered after surgery. Warhol’s nativity also evinced a fixed Mars-Neptune square (from Taurus to Leo) and I discussed this intriguing case also in a previous article: The 8th House: A Good Death? [...]

  12. Raymond Andrews says:

    I have retrograde Eris in Aries in 8th.
    what does that mean in regards to death. the object is larger,more distant and outer than Pluto, and so it should have a profound influence.

    I have Sun conjunct the South Eris Node in Scorpio with 10 minutes of arc too.

    there is a strong Eris/8th/Scorpio theme

  13. shething says:

    You are very bold. Many astrologers do not say such things about the 8th house because they don’t want to frighten people. I think I like you.

    Could the 8th house also explain what people are afraid of in terms of death? What I found interesting about this is my 8th house describes perfectly my childhood fears. When I was little I had an acute fear that I was going to die suddenly, of poisoning especially, at my own hand or by some supernatural force. These fears arose when Neptune went over my Moon in Capricorn, which by equal house system, is in the 8th house.

    In Placidus, I have Neptune in the 8th house 3 degrees from the cusp in Capricorn. When I was a child, I also feared that the devil (Saturn- which is in 6th house Sagittarius) was the one responsible for those feelings about my death and religious morality drove my fears to the extreme.

    Mars is also in the 8th house at 14 degrees Capricorn, Pluto is in the 6th house, with Venus in the 4th house Virgo trine Neptune and Square Saturn/Descendant conjunction. I’ve wondered if that means I’m going to be murdered and they’ll never catch the guy! Heh, I hope not. It might also mean I die peacefully in my sleep in old age but no one saw it coming.

    Very interesting article anyway. What do you think about which house systems to use in determining where the planets are for this?

  14. paulo says:

    Loved the insights, i have been reading this blog every once in a while, and now ill read it more often.

    My brother had Libra Uranus in his 8th house, and Virgo as the 8th cuspid. He was an Junior pro Apnea Diver Champion, used to hunt alot… anyway got missing in his last dive, got apart from his group, probably tailing some fish… a couple of weeks later found dead in a beach… (uranus/sudden; Mercury/lungs)

    Now… shame on u… :p
    where is Chiron on taurus over the 8th description ? joking, cause i have that.
    Anyway, great blob, great articles… keep up the good work.

  15. Debbie says:

    very good work, you are a fine astrologer!
    5 Stars

  16. i have not read this thread for a while. Death is a good subject to discuss. I have scorpio moon in eighth house square pluto and sun. I am not afraid of death, i do not go out of my way to pursue death, but the last ten years of my life have seen me work with people in respite and with the elderly. When you are eighty you are looking death in the face. Our attitudes and customs around growing old and dying should be reviewed. As death is part of our journey.
    Sudden death shocks us, and grief is debilitating for some, and we carry on with our lives, because that’s what you do.

  17. rachelle menaged says:

    8th. house scorpio and uranus..
    triple aries..
    i need more info

  18. Sara says:

    I have a whole book on the 8th house and my understanding from this book and other research i’ve done is that pluto rules the 8th, yet you say neptune rules the 8th. could you clarify? thanks!

    • chirotic says:

      Hello Sara,
      In the article I am only referring to the fact that Neptune rules Warhol’s 8th house. You are quite correct in your understanding that generally, Pluto is the natural ruler of the 8th,
      Take care,
      Jeremy

  19. Stephi says:

    Many thanks for sharing your insight, it has been most interesting and written in a fashion I much enjoy. :)

  20. Carolyn says:

    What sort of death would Pluto in Virgo in the 8th, Uranus in Virgo in the 8th, True Node in Leo in the 8th suggest? Sudden? Having to do with the heart and communication?

    Love this article. Still trying to figure out how to interpret on my own! Thanks.

    • Carolyn says:

      My Mercury is in Sag in the 12th.

      • chirotic says:

        Pluto is not especially strong in Virgo, Carolyn, so he is not such a factor in judgment as he is for those with Pluto in Leo or Libra. The Sun is the ruler of the 8th I assume? This means that you would need to look at the placement of the Sun to get the best insight. Solar issues have to do with heart and vitality but much depends on the Sun’s house, sign and aspects and the rising sign too. Uranus incidentally is very happy in Virgo and the 8th, so he is very strong in your chart, much more so than Pluto.

  21. Bhakti says:

    I have Uranus alone in the 8th house.

    • mimi says:

      what and where is the ruler of your 8th house?

      • chirotic says:

        Saturn rules my 8th, from the 11th, square Moon and Mars. It probably won’t be great fun.
        I’m fairly sure I’ll die age 73.

      • lmg says:

        Jeremy, have you observed any obvious suicide markers in a chart? And do you believe suicide is destined or karmic as well? 8th ruler conjunct south node perhaps…with 8th ruler square sun/moon in the 8th?

      • lmg says:

        Also the 4th cusp in Scorpio with Uranus/Jupiter conjunct in sagittarius in the 4th squaring mercury in the 8th.

      • Sheena says:

        My Saturn is also in my 11th in conjunction to Pluto and both planets trine with my Mars and Sun in the 8th. My saturn and pluto also sextile Neptune in the 2nd. And Neptune opposes my mercury, mars, and sun. Please read my other comment from today with more

    • chirotic says:

      It will probably be quick Bhakti, that’s not a bad thing when you think about it!

  22. Jennifer Stephan says:

    I think about dying all the time, but then I have had a life threatening disease and I am 55 and dear mom is 90. Aries on cusp of eighth with Aries Sun Mercury conjunct there, trining 4th house moon saturn conjunct in Sag, IC in Scorpio. Pluto in 12th applying to the first. How is that for a Plutonian chart? I will have to be working on this formula for awhile!

  23. Katya says:

    I have a question. Uranus is my 8th house ruler and it resides in my 5th house in scorpio. I also have pluto in 4th house in libra so I kind of “expect” to die suddenly etc. I would like to know if there is a way to find out if I gonna die young (I am already 34) or maybe when I am old? If I go to a good astrologer would be he/she be able to tell me I will live a long life? You know old would be better :)

    • chirotic says:

      Uranus is exalted in Scorpio but struggles greatly in the 5th house; even so, the sign placement lends more strength than the house takes away. Pluto in the 4th will give you some anxiety about end of life issues but there is nothing here to say that you will die young. It is more likely that you will die unexpectedly, but you could easily go at an advanced age unexpectedly as in youth, so do not worry.
      In my view the length of life is generally predetermined, i.e. it is karmic. That means that it is out of your hands, so there is no sense in worrying about it. Nothing you do is going to cause you to go early, so relax :)

  24. Virgo Sun and Mercury says:

    I had an x boyfriend die recently and then I read of Whitney Houston dying today. When I did Hellenistic Solar Return charts for them for the SR prior to their deaths – Saturn was sitting right on their Innum Coeli or I.C. (Using relocated charts)

    Using traditional astrology the 4th house shows the end of life.

    How do you do a Hellenistic SR? Go to astro.com and find the lunar return for when the sign is in the same sign as natal. Sign only – no matter the degrees. Note that rising because it is the solar return rising. You don’t know the degree of rising yet. Then determine the ruler of the year. To do this use a profection wheel seen at this link: http://www.sageasita.com/visual-nine.html

    To use a profection wheel you don’t need to know astrology. You just have to know your/their age. Go to the age and then note the house that it falls in natally. That gives you your years focus. Cadent houses tend to be difficult years. (3rd, 6th, 9th & 12th houses) See the sign on that house and find its ruler. Say you are Pisces rising and age 55. That makes Libra, ruled by Venus, the ruler of your year at your 55th birthday. So to get the rising DEGREE look to the SR Venus and see the degree it falls in and that is your Hellenistic SR rising.

  25. i’ve read that Saturn in the 8th house lends towards a death in old age. having Mars there lends to a quick, violent death. what if one had both there? say Mars is conjunct Pluto in the 8th as well (1 deg orb), with Saturn also there in a Grand Trine with the moon and ascendant. the Saturn rules the native’s sun in Capricorn. Mars, Pluto & Saturn are all in Scorpio, however the 8th house cusp is in Libra, with Venus conjunct the midheaven and well-aspected. my question is, which is stronger in this configuration? Mars or Saturn? or is the death a violent sudden event (Mars) on a grand, public scale (Pluto, Venus conj. midheaven) that slowly kills the individual at some point in his or her older age (Saturn)? possibly via some failing of the kidneys (Libra)? so complicated!

    by the way, i absolutely love your posts. i love astrology and aspire to be great at it someday. thank you for any feedback.

    • chirotic says:

      I am sorry for taking so long to respond to this.
      In the case you cite (if I follow it correctly) Mars is considerably stronger than Saturn, but much depends also on the rising sign. I am guessing this might be Pisces? Actually a Pisces Ascendant lends more power to Mars than Saturn also. Mars Saturn aspects are quite hard going, (I have the square) and give rise to muscular conditions, gallbladder issues, chills, cramps and arthritis. I think therefore that you are correct, death in old age is quite likely, but there will be muscular problems, energy issues, or some other Mars-related difficulty which is involved in the death. Mars/Saturn/Pluto in the 8th is a tough group and it is imperative that this person balance that energy with a healthy spiritual outlook. This is the way that karmic issues play into the picture. Too much domination energy (which this arrangement will tend toward) can lead to a great many health complications.

      • Susan says:

        Hi Chirotic, I wanted to ask if you might be able to elaborate a little on what you said about “Mars/Saturn/Pluto in the 8th” being a tough group and about it being imperative to balance this energy with a healthy spiritual outlook. I have this stellium in my 8th house (in Libra, with the Moon there too), and I am always trying to deconstruct its meaning. I understand each individual aspect and I know it is heavy, but if you could explain a little more I’d be grateful! In my case the stellium is retrograde too….. !!

      • chirotic says:

        Hi Susan, much depends on where Venus is (sign/house) and what sign is rising. I’m guessing Pisces?

      • Hi, Chirotic,

        I’m under the impression that I’ve already posted this but the post is gone.

        I have Uranus on the cusp of the 8th in Scorpio, trine Moon in the 12th and Mercury in the 4th, sextile Saturn in the 6th (part of a Kite).

        Pluto is in the 7th along with Mars and Lilith (those are on the Desc) in Libra, squaring Mercury.

        Do you have any ideas on this? I already have some but I’m not sure whether I’m exaggerating or undermining this. Thanks!:)

      • Susan says:

        In answer to your question about Venus (ruler of my 8th) in sign and house: my venus is in aquarius in the 12th, and my rising sign is also aquarius, with uranus conjunct my midheaven. I was’t specifically asking about the circumstances of my own death (though the tight semi-square of my 8th house mars to uranus at my MC has always made me a little nervous!), but more about your previous comment re Mars/Saturn/Pluto in the 8th. Many thanks. Great website by the way :)

      • chirotic says:

        The reason I ask Susan is because when you have a stellium of planets, like this, the ruler gives a big clue about where that energy is ‘going’. In this instance, your Mars, Saturn and Pluto are all working for Venus in your 12th house. When we put together the energy signature of Mars-Saturn Pluto, we get a certain picture. Now, with this group and in your case specifically, Saturn is the dominant planet, even though Mars and Pluto are strong in the 8th. This is because Saturn’s placement in Libra with a sympathetic Aquarius rising gives the majority of power to Saturn. Saturn will therefore dominate the stellium and Venus will express it. There is no really easy way to look at this stellium because it is quite brutal. It creates a great deal of anxiety around sexual matters especially, but also about control issue with partners. This placement doesn’t make relationships easy. It gives you a really strong power of resistance against being oppressed especially. You might experience a lot of being pushed around (I guess it’s possible that you coule be a dominatrix and do all the pushing, but you see the drift here). With Venus in the 12th then it might operate by giving you an outlet in a very unusual romantic fantasy. Of course, I don’t mean to debase the vision. The 8th house though is pretty biological at the best of times and has a lot to do with sex, power and control. It could be that you have a propensity for fantasy that is fuelled by those strong and very primal feelings. The manifestation could come out in many other ways of course, and wealth is one of them. There might be a dream of being financially independent and that this would release you from some difficult situation. There may be strong experiences of debt which have to be faced up to and pacified. The possibilites are many, but the themes are all around here.

      • Susan says:

        Wow, that’s rather heavy! Well I haven’t had the easiest time in love, for sure, though I was in a relatively “stable” 8 year relationship in which I admittedly got quite stuck (saturn), but I am out of it now and better for it.

        I can’t say I’ve ever really been “pushed around” (and I am not one to be overly pushy or dominating) but power struggles of one kind or another have been big in my romantic relationships. I do indeed have a deep anxiety around intimacy (usually at the start of a new relationship) and I do find it difficult to really let people in, so this all resonates. I would like to think that I have the ability to make inner transformations in these areas though.

        A question: you say saturn is the strongest in this stellium with it being exalted in Libra, but would this not also make it a more “favorable” saturn to work with… and perhaps, ultimately, more beneficent? In that my saturn lessons are found through relationships (libra) and that I can experience growth (pluto) in the area(s) of my most intimate (8th house) relationships, if I commit (saturn) myself to this goal (mars)? I dunno, trying to find a more positive way to read this…

      • chirotic says:

        I apologise Susan if the way I wrote this gave it a negative slant. The difficulty of any particular configuration has no bearing on the experiencer (that’s you), and your level of consciousness will dictate your reaction to the issues thrown up by this arrangement. There is no fate, just astrology, karma and a human soul with it’s own level, and these three dictate how you find yourself in the world. So, the energy here is heavy, but it is entirely in your power to transmute it as you say.

        Saturn does work more naturally in Libra than some other signs, but you are still pushed to learn his lessons which is never easy no matter where he is found and in this case it is about relating in a balanced way. So the energies here are not negative, the only thing that can be negative is your reaction to them, but they are difficult when compared with Saturn trine Mars for example, with no contact from Pluto. Of course because life is subjective we don;t get that in our gut. We take it in our stride, and this is why it might seem like a shock to you to read that this is the energy signature at play. But you see, you are adept at handling it because you’ve had to grow up with it, so it does not feel that way subjectively, right? If you could swap that stellium for Venus conjunct Jupiter in the 8th you would probably be bowled over at how different it feels.

        Does that make sense? There is no bad astrology, because your astrology only presents a learning challenge: the only thing that can be ‘bad’ is the way which you meet the challenge.

      • Susan says:

        I appreciate your honesty and the clarification. And you’re right, I have grown up with it all my life, and the test is how I deal with it and choose to meet the challenges thrown up by this configuration. It’s a steep learning curve, that’s for sure…

      • Chirotic – I just found this now – I had no idea you had responded. Yes, my rising is in Pisces – with Neptune 29 deg Sag in the 10th conjunct Jupiter in the same degree. Libra on the cusp of 8th and Venus in Sag 20 deg conjunct Midheaven in Sag 19 deg. All of my Sag energy is well aspected in the 10th house (which gives me strong faith in life). Mars/Pluto conjunction 2/3 deg Scorpio. Saturn 15 deg Scorpio in 8th – rules the Sun, 26 deg Cap. How do you suppose the Pisces rising makes Mars stronger? Both Mars and Saturn are in water – Mars rules Scorpio and is very at home in the 8th, however the Saturn rules the Sun! My Sun is squared Mars/Pluto – making my Mars is extremely strong – but being a Capricorn should make my Saturn, I think, temper the Mars, just like it tempers the Sun. Plus I would think that even having Mars in Scorpio makes it less trigger happy, bringing out the more steadfast side of Mars… obviously it being in the 8th house makes me want to put lots of energy into 8th house matters (hence, studying astrology for 10 years) – so I am inclined to agree with you that, there will be a block of one’s energy (Mars), but the toll is takes is much less sudden (Saturn) than say, getting fatally shot one day out of nowhere. And as for health problems, this is also interesting, because wouldn’t having Mars/Pluto in Scorpio conjunct give me outstanding regenerative power? My body is strong and recuperates rather quickly.

        It’s interesting how you mention the correlation between how we break-up, how we quit bad habits, how we handle our fears, how we navigate 8th house issues, is indicative of how we will cross over. I can take a lot of hits and keep going, but once I am done with something, I erase it from my life completely. I guess I will hold onto life stubbornly until I am ready to just let go. The quickness of Mars just doesn’t feel right…. but I suppose it never does.

  26. sailesh says:

    I have nothing in the 8th house but mars 10th look on it.. what is that supposed to mean? nobody else is looking except mars!

  27. Patricia says:

    I am gobsmacked. It’s very eery but I was drawn to this subject.
    Whitney Houston had Neptune in her 8th house.
    Your explanations are obviously founded upon concrete evidence and research. I’ve had a look at quite a few birth charts and it’s a bit freaky knowing the possible causes of deaths…..
    Thank you for this site.

    Patricia (Cancer, Virgo rising, Chiron in Aries, 8th house, and fortunately (?) 8th house ruled by Pisces rather than Aries!

  28. Mizu says:

    I have Virgo as my Eighth house but there are no planets in it… what does it mean?

    • chirotic says:

      Generally an untenanted house has no especial influence, so you are (more than those whose 8th house is tenanted) much more the master of your own destiny. The position of Mercury by sign, house and aspect will have the most influence on how life ends for you.

  29. Kay Kraeuter says:

    I have an un-aspected Saturn in the 8th house along with Mars [to wide an orb to make a conjunction]. Mars makes favorable aspects to Jupiter and Pluto. Here is what I do not understand, for your theory to be correct on the 8th house and death, wouldn’t all children born at the same time and place with the same 8th house configurations meet the same type of demise? It seems to stretch credulity to believe that all people with the same configuration within the 8th house die at the same time, under similar circumstances.

    • chirotic says:

      Hi Kay, I see why this would seem to make sense, but there are myriad differentials between charts of people born even close together. Beyond this there is also the matter of karma and the level of consciousness of the soul to consider. Since one’s world is manifested from one’s beliefs and beliefs are directly derived from one’s level of consciousness, the likelihood of a difficult or unpleasant demise (even if that difficulty is subjective) is greatly increased if one has a low level of consciousness. Hostile and angry people therefore fear death, and thereby experience much more fear during the process than loving and accepting people do. This has nothing at all to do with astrology. The manner of death will still fit the framework of astrology however, a strong Mercury influence denotes lungs and transport. One person might die from emphysemia while another might lose their life in a traffic accident. Of course that is a simplistic example designed to illustrate the principle. What is it that decides which of these two outcomes is any one person’s fate? Their level of consciousness and their karma.

  30. patrick says:

    It is funny, reading your descriptions of the signs ruling the 8th relating to the causes of death. It applied to many of the famous deaths I immediately searched afterward. Not funny as if you made them sound like the obvious examples for each one, but that they actually made sense in regard to the planets and signs involved!

    Cancer rules the stomach, and the home, and over-eating as a way of dealing with things. Guess who’s got a Cancer ruled 8th house? Elvis! Lincoln had Mars in the 8th too, like JFK. Kurt Cobain’s 8th was ruled by Aries.

    I found it funny, though that’s probably because of my Sun, Merc, Nep in Capricorn & Sat, Ura, cusp in Sag— all in the 8th House.

  31. Graham says:

    Good article. So, when dealing with multiple factors, how do you decide which is relevent, and among those which plays a larger role?

    My eighth house cusp is at 8 Libra, with Mars applying at less than a degree away. Venus, my 8th’s ruler is in Taurus conjunct my moon. Aside from that, Saturn (15 Libra) Pluto (23 Libra) and Jupiter (0 Scorpio) are all well within my 8th. My 9th house cusp os 15 Scorpio. Where do I ever start?

    • chirotic says:

      I think the rule to bear in mind is that with time the ruler of a house holds more sway over the affairs of that house. Your Venus, exalted and conjunct an exalted Moon is an excellent indicator of a peaceful death, probably at home and while sleeping. This is a gentle and benign influence for the 8th. Mars in Libra tends to poor judgment, or more particularly in matters of action at least, *hesitation*. The early danger then is from accidents due to hesitation, or going in too strongly but too late. Anyone with Mars in or influencing the 8th should beware of hasty and impulsive action. This said, Mars has a natural affinity with the 8th which actually helps his expression, so it is not all bad.

      • Hey, thank you for the reply chirotic. So, in regards to a ‘peaceful death, probably at home and while sleeping’, Mars would play the roll of possibly creating the circumstances leading to death? Was I reading that right?? Could the hesitation be something like procrastinating in getting a health issue addressed?

        Anyways, thanks again for the reply, just trying to clear that little bit up

      • chirotic says:

        I only mean that if you are karmically destined (if you like) to die young, then Mars will hold sway, so hesitation might be a factor and therefore cause an accident. I think that is unlikely though. As you grow older, the house ruler will begin to overpower the house tenants, so your Venus will become the major factor. One thing that occurs is that a Taurus ruled Venus and Mars in Libra might suggest dietary issues relating to blood sugar and the kidneys. You would be well-advised to eat sensibly and to keep the sugar intake down. With Venus/Moon in Taurus there is a distinct love of food which must be managed for the sake of good health. Remember though that your astrlogy is not fate, it is rather like a life-map which is easier to follow, like a well-worn groove, than it is to avoid, but you can resist it if you are self-aware of those tendencies. This means that with Moon/Venus in Taurus it is easy for you to get into a habit of eating comfort foods and this might ultimately cause problems later in life if you do not resist the impulse to comfort eating. Because there is a connection though between food and security for you it feels counter-intuitive to eat a low-fat, low-sugar diet, but you can do it if you are aware of the tendency.

      • Thanks again for clarifying that chirotic. There is definitely truth in that. Shortly before my first Saturn return began -about 2 years ago- my dietary habits had the Dr. put me on two different cholesterol medications ; this at the age of 28. At that point my weight wasnt an issue, but coming out of my return I ramped the bad habits up a bit and ended getting very sick.

        Since then I’ve been working hard to keep myself healthy, and plan on continuing as long as its possible.

        Thanks again for the insight

  32. abz says:

    After reading this article, I learnt alot. I am now eager to learn more for peregrination…

    I’ve got Leo in 8th house cusp… whereas Sun is exalted in Aries in 3rd house… While my Pluto is in Scorpio 10th house… What would it mean then? Thanks…

  33. Karen M. says:

    To repeat a previous comment, for this hypothesis to be true, you would see the same manner of death in individuals with identical chart placements. For example, those born at the same time as JFK, would have come to a similar violent end. We don’t have to go that far back however, technology today would allow us to compare charts of individuals to see the manner death, and thus compare the circumstances. Until an astrologer gives us more data, no plausible connection can be made with the 8th house, only selective cases can be cited to “prove” this faulty premise.

    • chirotic says:

      I think this misses the point, but I understand why this dichotomy might confuse. Astrology is not maths, so we cannot create hard and fast rules, and the truth is we cannot actually determine the exact manner of death before the event because there are karmic elements in the same mix. What we know is that the manner of death will follow the style of the associated planetary placements and rulerships. The purpose of the article is to illustrate principles using examples. Those born at the same time as JFK would not necessarily come to a violent end because they do not have the same karma, however, those born at the exact same time, will still experience a demise in keeping with the same 8th house elements.
      Your argument is a classic, but simplistic argumentative disproof of astrology, and by these criteria astrology cannot be proved, because it is not simplistic. At the same time, everyone’s demise follows the pattern of their astrology exactly. It is rather like ‘predicting’ weather. A complex matter, far from an exact science, but the juxtaposition of many factors does indeed create weather. By your argument, the same conditions would produce the same weather in all cases, but there are always many variations, in weather as in astrology. Forecasters do a good job of getting it mostly right. Just because they cannot predict weather with unerring exactitude does not disprove weather any more than your argument disproves astrology. And that is without considering karma, and the soul’s level of consciousness, neither of which can be quantified by astrology.

  34. wilowisp says:

    I have Gemini in the 8th House, what does this mean?

  35. If I have sun, moon, mercury, venus, and chiron all in the 8th house in Gemini, which is the dominant planet? Which planet will signify my death?

  36. Fred says:

    Hi again Jeremy, another quick message from a different post! The Moon rules my 8th from the 1st, conjunct Neptune (ruling the IC) and the Asc, trine Jupiter in the 8th (in Leo) and square Saturn in the 9th in Virgo. Between Mo/Ne/Ju and Leo, there’s probably gonna be a big “over-something” involved… or might Saturn/Virgo sober things up a little? Love your posts, as usual :) Cheers!

    • chirotic says:

      The danger with a Saturn squared Moon ruling the 8th lies in not looking after yourself properly. So take care of yourself dear Fred, eat well, take the time to relax, don’t work too hard! And the Jupiter may give a propensity to drink, or to eating rich food. So that isn;t the way to relax in this case, you see?

  37. Hi, Chirotic,

    I have Uranus in Scorpio on the cusp of the 8th and Pluto (with Mars and Lilith) in Libra in the 7th.
    What do you think about it?

    Thank you!

  38. layla d. says:

    hello there
    just discovered your wonderful – wonderful page !
    so delighted to read your entries
    going through the comments my boyfriends chart occured in mind
    he has saturn in 8th house , also venus in the 8th house (in different signs though)
    saturn is the ruler of his 5th house
    so … i always afraid something might happen to him …
    can you give me some insight please?
    thank you so much!

  39. Judy Miller says:

    It’s my first visit to your website (directed here by my interest in mercury-pluto aspects) very absorbing. Having sun and mercury in capricorn eighth house has made me curious about this area of astrology. I’ve just come through an intense pluto-sun transit which has awoken my radical religious longings. My 8 house sun squares a uranus-jupiter-south node conjunction in the fifth house. I’m just wondering if this aspect could have an influence on the kind of death I could experience.
    Thank you for any thoughts and Happy Birthday wishes.
    Judy

  40. Kysa says:

    Moon conjunct Saturn (Aquarius) in the 2nd House square Sun (Taurus) last seconds of 4rth house conjunct Mercury first seconds of 5th house and opposition to Mars in Leo (1st trine ) of the 8th House ( Mars squares Sun and mercury accordingly ). The 8th house has a “locked up” sign – virgo, where Pluto and Uranus reside ). Hope brings here Venus in Aries, that is projecting from the 3rd house a sextile to Saturn/Moon and a trine to Mars. Venus has no negative aspects, Sun – no positive aspects. Jupiter is also in the 3rd, no aspects. Asc – last degrees of Sagittarius, no planets in the 1st house. Neptune in Scorpio and 10th house squares the 8th house pluto in Virgo.
    Who can figure out a manner of death from this astrological cocktail? – would be veeeeeeeeeeery much appreciated!!…..

  41. Elaina says:

    I have 8th house cusp in Scorpio – with Pluto IN Scorpio IN the 8th house – Can you help explain this?

  42. I have nothing in my 8th house but an asteroid called Juno.. hmmmmm…however the sun rules my 8th house.

  43. Richard Di Castri says:

    Greetings Chirotic

    I found your article very interesting and informative. I’ve never looked too closely at my 8th house…(cusp is Saggitarius)…..Jupiter is fallen in my Gemini 1st house ! I’m currently living abroad in Mexico, where I am perpetually stressed-out, and loathe leaving my property for any reason. I’ve only once returned to my home in Canada, but found travelling there and back again absolutely terrifying !

    I used to love travelling when I was younger…My Sun and Moon are conjunct in 1st house Gemini, along with Jupiter and Mars; both Sun and Moon are trine Saturn/Neptune and sextile Pluto…..(I just finished my 2nd Saturn return).

    I now avoid travel of any sort. Living here in Mexico has felt like death ever since I got here…..circumstance dictates I’ll have to stay a while longer. Hmmm!…the land of the living dead !

  44. Joseph Raael says:

    I am an Astrologer and find this topic fascinating! When clients request information about their possible causes/date with destiny, I look to a combination of 8th House/4th House cusps, what key cusp signs will be involved in their life progressions, natal placements on the 1st House, placement of Pluto, and the quality of 6th House just to name a few ;) I have found that my North Node Cancer in the 8th House allows me to navigate the natural obstacles and nurture the delivery of ‘intense or taboo’ information to clients, when need be.

    Warm regards
    Joseph **

  45. Louie Hanna says:

    I found your article absolutely enlightening, and very glad to find it. I also have no fear of death. I recently had a reading with an astrologer who is also a great personal friend. I was told that my ascendant sun as well as pluto will be on the cusp of 4th house in about 2016. At the moment Sun is at 10 degrees and Pluto on 11 in the 3rd. She told me that if these planets reach the cusp of 4, may mean major transformation – even death. Apparently it was the same with John Kennedy Jr. I would really like to know more about this, but she seemed uncomfortable to tell me more and I cannot find any info online about this. Where can I find more about this? Can you help me with this ?

  46. Death didn’t want me at 21 (first Saturn third quarter square) when I had a stroke. At 65 physical, spiritual, and mental health is as good as ever and improving. Pluto, Saturn, and Mars are in Leo in the 8th;Cancer on cusp; Aires on 4th house cusp with Venus there in Taurus

    Your article highlights the mysteries behind the 8th house and it’s many secrets. Thank you for helping shine light on some of the darker aspects of astrology

  47. WhattheKitty says:

    I have nothing in my 8th house, but it is ruled by either Taurus or Gemini. (Time is unknown for my birth, and only a rough estimate was used.) My Mars is in Libra in the 12th house. Is Mars in the 12th house supposedly bad? Pluto is in Sagittarius in the 2nd house. I have ascendant in Scorpio, although again to the time, I could be Libra. I can’t really analyze this, but what do you think about the death?

  48. neptune says:

    Chirotic how comes you sure about your age of death. Did you look at solar for that year, progresions or do you just feel it?

    Saturn rules my 8th as well and is dispositor of the Sun in capricorn and Mercury the lord of the ascedant in 9th house.
    Saturn conjunct South node on the cusp of second house and trine the Uranus from 6th house.

  49. Sheena says:

    I have my sun 3° cancer, mars 27° Gemini , and my north node 25° Gemini all in my 8th house. My mercury is 18° gemini, my ascendant is 20° scorpio and aries is in my fifth house if that may effect things. Could you tell me how I might die, please? The placements seem intense to me.

  50. Lu says:

    Great Article, well writen! :)
    So, if I understood it right, if I look at my chart, I know how will be my death… Car accident or something like that.
    I have a stellium in the 8th house sun/saturn/pluto/jupiter in libra however the cusp is in virgo.
    Mercury is 9th house, in another stellium with moon, uranus all in scorpio, however the cusp is in libra.
    Venus is conjunct uranus and MC, what have to do with abrupt happenings or accidents…
    My 4th house there aren’t planets, but the cusp is in gemini… So, comunication, transports and back to the mercury.
    So I think the death will be of transport accident.
    My rising sign is pisces/aquarius, it’s exactly in the midle, but independent of the sign there is a square between AC and uranus, and square between AC and venus.
    My mars in leo in the 6th house also square venus and uranus… So, seems violent.

    • Jem Neal says:

      Of course that is possible, but remember a Venus ruler suggests peace and harmonious events. So maybe there is a sudden factor, but not necessarily shocking or violent. Also 10th house in your case denotes the mother, so this arrangement also denotes unexpected events around your relationship with her. Sudden endings that bring peace.

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